Remember when I told you “The Secret Tip that Will Transform Your Property Owners Association Annual Meeting?” Today, I’m giving you a tool that will help you put that tip into action.

First, let’s recap. In brief, the secret tip is to add a members forum to the meeting. The members forum allows people to say their piece. It’s a super democratic move on your part to give voice to members of your property owners group who don’t have a spot on the program, but also keep them from droning on for hours and hijacking the meeting. You can add a members forum in five short steps. I’ll let you read them here.

Maybe you read about the members forum and thought, “Awesome.  Hope I can do that someday.”  Well, the goal of today’s post is to help you do that sooner rather than later. The Open Forum Speaker Responsibilities and Sign-In Sheet is a printable resource that you can take to your next meeting. One page states the forum rules, and the other page is a sign-up sheet. If you sign the sheet, you’re agreeing to follow the rules. Plain and simple.    


Open Forum Speaker Responsibilities and Sign-In Sheet

5 Blog Posts to Help Remake Your Meetings in 2019No one will blame you if “learn more parliamentary procedure” isn’t on your list of 2019 resolutions. But let’s hope “have more productive meetings” made the cut. If it did, here are five posts that will get you started.

Four Things Most People Get Wrong about Abstentions

To count or not to count the non-voters – this is the question. Find out what to do when members decline to vote.

Four Myths about Robert’s Rules and Quorum – And Why the Truth Matters

Why should you care about how many people attend a meeting? Learn the fine points of quorum and how it affects action-taking for your group.

5 Essential Facts about Closing Debate

If one of your New Year’s resolutions is to shorten your meetings, then check out this post on how to properly say, “Let’s stop talking and vote already.”

Easy Fix – Ways to Make an Agenda Work for You

Good news for 2019 – you don’t have to follow the traditional Robert’s Rules order of business if you don’t want to. Read this post for ways to customize an agenda to the needs of your group.

Shhh, It’s a Secret – What No One Tells You about Executive Session

Want to have a closed-door meeting? Here’s the low-down on what you can and can’t do in executive session.

For the sake of voters everywhere, I’d like to sing the praises of tellers: Being a good teller is plain old hard work, requiring the perfect mix of caution and confidence. Where and how does a teller assure voters of her diligence? In a tellers report.

A Tellers Report Should Never Omit the Essentials

3 Facts You Must Know about a Tellers ReportLet’s be clear about one thing: A tellers report should not be a few numbers scribbled on the back of a Target receipt you just found at the bottom of your purse. A tellers report gives the voting membership confidence that all of the votes cast were both counted and properly accounted for.

With this in mind, a tellers report should include the following categories of information for each vote taken:

A Tellers Report Should Never Include Extra Information

A tellers report should be complete and informative, yes. (See my last point.) But there’s no need to get verbose. Specifically, there’s no need to include the number of members eligible to vote or the number of members abstaining.

Unless your governing documents say that a certain vote or election needs a majority of the entire membership to pass, the number of members eligible to vote is irrelevant. You’re only interested in the number of members that actually voted.

And the number of abstentions are in the generally irrelevant category, too.

A Tellers Report Should Always Appear in the Minutes

The tellers report is part of the official business transacted at a meeting. That means that it becomes part of the official record of the meeting – the minutes.

Just so we’re on the same page, when I say that the tellers report should go in the minutes, I mean all of the report. Not just one line about who won the election or which proposal was adopted. All. Of. It. Number of votes cast, number of votes necessary to win, number of votes received by each candidate or position, and number of illegal votes. The whole thing.

Maybe you’re thinking, TMI? Or maybe you’re feeling sorry for the people who lost and you’re thinking, why do we need to make a permanent record for all time of that sad event? Yeah, this isn’t the time for those thoughts.

Complete info – full record – the whole shebang – this is a good thing in teller reports. Recounts and re-dos are real when it comes to ballot votes, and you need a solid record of how you arrived at the winner the first time.

If you’re a teller, do it right. Create voter confidence by counting ballots confidently yourself. Then, draft a record that’s got all the right info and none of the superfluous stuff. It’s a win-win in every respect – for you, the victor, the voters, and yes, even an unsuccessful candidate.

The Secret Tip that Will Transform Your Property Owners Association Annual Meeting“I’m so excited about the property owners association annual meeting!” said no one ever.

Universal agreement on any topic is hard to come by these days, but I’m pretty sure we would get close if we took a poll on whether anyone thinks a property owners association annual meeting is a pleasant experience. Except for, maybe, the food… if you’re lucky. So what’s the secret to making the annual meeting somewhat enjoyable? Add a members forum.

A members forum is a dedicated spot on the agenda where property owners can talk about their concerns. In short, a forum targets the two main reasons that annual meetings are pure misery:  They last for what seems like an eternity, and they require listening to countless disgruntled property owners that can’t won’t stop talking.

Here’s how to put an end to all that nonsense:

Step One: Add a Line to the Agenda that Says, “Members Forum”

When you make your agenda for the meeting, the very last line should say, “Members Forum.”  This line item comes after everything else – after the election results are announced, and most importantly, after the official business meeting is adjourned.

The beauty of the members forum is that it happens after the meeting is officially over. The business is done, no quorum is needed, and no one has to stay and listen unless they want to.

Step Two: Create a Speakers Log

A speakers log is a sign-up list with the following columns: name, signature, address (or lot number), and topic. It works like this: As property owners check in for the meeting, they add their name to the list if they have something they want to say publicly to the board, staff, property management company, or anyone else. This gets you a nice, tidy list of those who want to voice something in the members forum.

At the top of the sign-up list, state basic rules: Wait your turn, stay on topic, try not to yell or call people names, and don’t talk too long. Usually I include a few extras, too, such as a two-to-three minute time limit and a reminder that the forum is a one-way conversation. Owners shouldn’t expect a dialogue. It’s a forum, not a Q&A session.

Step Three: Adjourn the Meeting

I made this point above, but I’ll say it again: Adjourn before you start the forum. Doing so gives owners an opportunity to leave if they just can’t bear another minute. It also prevents the meeting from unraveling if someone uses the forum to propose a “great idea” or gripe about the results of a vote.

Step Four: Set Up the Physical Space Strategically

I find a forum works best when a microphone is placed at the front of the room, facing the platform, not the members. This set-up requires an owner to feel strongly enough about her views to stand in front of the entire group and express them. It naturally dissuades the person who just wants to complain from the back corner.

But facing the microphone towards the platform, where presumably the board and staff are sitting, means views are expressed to those who have the power to actually fix problems. This tends to be much more productive than allowing owners to address the group, which often just riles everyone up. (Trust me, there are better ways to rally the group.)

Step Five: Find a Neutral Facilitator

Finally, find a person that can stand at the front and facilitate the forum in a neutral manner. Go for someone authoritative, but impartial on this one – not a staff member, not a board member. Consider a professional parliamentarian hired to provide this and other meeting leadership services for your group. But whoever it is, their job should be simple: Recognize members in the order listed on the speakers log, keep track of the time each person speaks, and enforce the rules and time limit consistently.

Need an annual meeting success strategy? By putting essential property owners’ business up front and postponing all the bonus “I’ve got somethin’ great to share” talk till the end, a members forum serves as a winning solution.

Everything You Need to Know About Counting Ballot VotesIf you’ve ever volunteered been hand-selected to be a teller at an annual meeting or convention, you know there’s that brief moment of panic when you hope you know what you’re doing and hope you haven’t just screwed up an election or other important vote.

Keeping that panic moment brief means knowing the basics about how to count ballot votes.  Here’s a guide.

Start by Determining the Total Number of Votes Cast

Determining the total number of votes cast is important because that number becomes your baseline for calculating the number of votes needed for a majority.

The following count as “votes cast”:

  • ballots indicating a choice for an eligible candidate or option
  • illegal ballots

The following do not count as “votes cast”:

  • blank ballots
  • ballots that don’t indicate a preference
  • ballots cast by persons not entitled to vote

Calculate the Number Needed for a Majority

Once your teller team knows the total number of votes cast, divide that number in half to determine the number needed for a majority. A majority is more than half.

One special note: On a ballot where several offices are listed – e.g., president, vice president, treasurer, secretary – you need to calculate the votes cast and number needed for a majority for each office. A multi-office ballot isn’t a one-size-fits-all operation where you just count the total number of ballots and call it a day.

The reason for the separate calculations? Some members may have voted for some, but not all, of the offices. And a ballot that includes a vote for president and vice president, but for no other offices, is counted in the number of votes cast for those two offices, but is counted as blank (i.e., an abstention) for the others. And on the flip side, a ballot that’s illegal as to one selection isn’t illegal as to all.

Determine if a Questionable Vote Affects the Result

Questionable votes are votes that are semi-intelligible, but not entirely clear. In other words, they can’t be put in the “I-have-absolutely-no-idea-who-or-what-this-person-was-trying-to-vote-for” illegal vote category. But they also can’t be placed clearly in the stack for one candidate or choice.

Say, for example, both Bonnie Smith and Bobbie Smith are members of your organization. It is entirely feasible that someone could vote for one of these individuals as a write-in but not write the name legibly enough for tellers to determine which person is being voted for.

Or, maybe you have Mr. Can’t-Make-Up-His-Mind in your group. His ballot is the one that has an X next to all three people running for president, but then some of the Xs are scribbled through . . . sort of . . . and you’re just not sure who he really meant to vote for in the end.

When it comes to questionable ballots like these, you need to determine whether the vote would affect the result.

  • If you were stake-your-life-on-it sure that the ballot said “Bobbie Smith,” would Bobbie Smith win or lose? If the vote doesn’t make a difference as to the election or vote outcome, stick the vote in the illegal vote stack.
  • If it could make a difference, parliamentary procedure states that you are to immediately take the issue to the assembly and ask them to decide whether that beautiful cursive says “Bobbie” or “Bonnie.”

Strap on your decisiveness hat. Get ready to total carefully. And count ‘em up.

How to Decide If a Ballot Vote is LegalIf you’re a teller charged with counting ballots, we all hope that you can, at a minimum, . . . count. But let’s be clear – we also hope you know a few other very important details about balloting too – like how to determine which votes are legal and which are not.

Parliamentary procedure to the rescue.

Why Do We Care Whether a Vote is Legal?

First things first. Is vote legality even significant? Well, aside from arguments of principle, let’s just keep it practical for the very nice people who have agreed to be tellers at your convention: We care whether votes are legal because we need to know how to calculate the total votes needed for a majority.

In case I just lost you, here’s an example. Tammy Top-Notch Teller empties the ballot box and finds 12 ballots for the office of treasurer. Ten of the votes are legal, and two are not. If Tammy Top-Notch Teller is confused about what to do with illegal votes, she might:

(a) Throw the ballots with illegal votes in the trash, report that there are 10 total votes cast, and tell everyone that six is the magic number (majority) needed to win the spot of treasurer.

(b) Panic and announce that the entire election has to be redone because there were illegal votes!!

(c) Decide that legal or not, all votes should be counted because inclusiveness is what really matters in the world today.

(d) Conclude that she’s really not top-notch after all and decide to hang out at the refreshments table instead.

If you’re thinking that none of the above options is the best approach, you are a star teller in the making. Seriously, though, how in the world do you know if a vote is legal, and what do you do if you find an illegal vote in your stack of ballots?

Types of Illegal Votes

First, you need to be able to confidently put a vote in the legal or illegal category. Here’s a simple list of the types of votes that are not legal:

  • Unintelligible Votes – If you hands down cannot tell who or what the vote is for, it gets put in the illegal stack.

But be careful, because misspellings that you can decipher do not count as unintelligible. If someone writes in John Willie-Wonka as John Willy-Wacca, chances are you know which guy they meant to vote for.

And, if the vote is questionable but not completely unintelligible – like it might be for Bobbie but it could maybe be for Bonnie – there’s a special protocol to follow. That’s a post for another day.

  • Votes for Ineligible Candidates – I know you think Elton John is the best ever. But if he’s not a member of your organization, he just can’t be president. Votes cast for him are illegal. So sorry.
  • Votes for Too Many Candidates – Fran Friends-with-Everyone can only mark one choice for VP. If she puts an X next to every VP candidate, her VP vote is illegal.
  • Ballots Folded Together – If you find two ballots folded together and both marked for Trickster Tom, follow your gut and put those ballots in the illegal stack. They count as one illegal vote. Note, though, that both ballots have to be filled out for them to get the illegal label. If one is blank, Trickster Tom is in the clear and gets one vote.

What to Do With Illegal Votes

Once you have two stacks – legal votes and illegal votes – there’s an easy rule about what to do with the illegal ones: Count them in the total number of votes cast, but do not count them toward any specific choice. So in the example above, Tammy Top-Notch Teller should have calculated the number needed for a majority from 12, not 10. The two illegal votes get counted in the total number of votes cast—they just don’t get credited to any one person’s efforts to become treasurer.

One final note: Votes cast by people not entitled to vote aren’t counted at all. So yes, that means if Elton John shows up and votes, it doesn’t get counted, unless he is a member. Even if he is the best ever.

A Beginner’s Guide for Tellers: How to Collect Ballots and Count VotesIf you’ve been asked to be a teller for a meeting, you have an important job. Yes, your job includes collecting ballots and counting votes. But really, your No. 1 job is to instill confidence in the membership—confidence that the vote was fair, and that the results are accurate. Hopefully, you’ve been hand selected because the people in charge think you’ll be a rock star teller. Here’s what you need to do to live up to that title.

Make a Plan for Collecting Ballots

Collecting ballots is simple if you remember that you have three big goals: (1) Avoid mayhem. (2) Make sure only members vote. And (3) make sure no member votes more than once unless he’s holding a proxy for another member. To accomplish these goals, you have to make a plan for how to collect the ballots. Here are some choices:

  • If only members are present, or if you have a members-only section, one teller can pass a ballot box while another teller watches to make sure each member only votes once.
  • If members and non-members are present in the same space, members can leave their seats and go to a ballot box where at least two tellers watch to make sure that only members are voting and that they are only voting once.

Once you’ve decided on a plan, tell the chair before the meeting so that she can instruct the members about what to do once they’ve filled out their ballot.

Count the Ballots in a Private Room

Some groups require ballots to be counted in the presence of the group. If not, stake out a quiet, private place ahead of the meeting and make sure it’s reserved for you to use for counting ballots. (Hint: The lobbies outside the convention hall or staff headquarters do not usually fit the definition of a quiet, private place.)

Have a Method for Counting Votes

Let’s get one thing straight: Counting votes does not mean you dump the ballot box out on the table, let every teller grab a few ballots and count ‘em up, and then huddle when you’re done to total.

Ideally, counting ballot votes looks like this: 

  1. Empty the contents of the ballot box onto a table.
  2. Have two tellers check the ballot box to make sure it is completely empty.
  3. Divide tellers into pairs that can work together.
  4. Divide ballots into piles (randomly—no special sorting) for each pair of tellers.
  5. Have one teller in each pair unfold the ballots in his pile while the other teller in that pair watches for two ballots folded/stuck together.
  6. Once all ballots are unfolded, regroup tellers into groups of three: a reading teller, a writing teller, and a watching teller.
  7. The reading teller in each group says out loud the contents of each ballot while the watching teller observes to make sure the ballot is accurately read.
  8. During this reading, questionable ballots (e.g., two folded together, illegible ballots, etc.) are set aside for review.
  9. When the reading teller says the contents of the ballot, the writing teller makes a tally on a blank sheet of paper, and the watching teller observes to make sure the tally mark goes next to the right person/choice.
  10. When all the ballots in a pile are counted, the reading and writing teller work together to total the votes tallied on that recording sheet while the watching teller checks their math.
  11. Questionable ballots are reviewed by the group of tellers. If necessary, the group sets them aside for consideration by the entire assembly.
  12. Totals from all recording sheets are tallied, entered on the tellers’ report, and double-checked.

You, as a teller, have a big job. Your careful work gives your whole organization confidence that votes are being handled responsibly according to parliamentary procedure. Organize your team, your stuff and your process, and do this thing.

5 Characteristics of a Rock Star TellerFirst things first: What’s a teller? In the world of parliamentary procedure, a teller is a person who helps to pass out, collect, and count ballots, and a head teller reports the results of a vote to the chair for announcement.

Choosing tellers for a meeting usually goes like this:

Chairman Always-On-the-Ball: [Five minutes before meeting, thinking to himself] Oh, wait. We need tellers to count the votes for the election. Oops. Forgot about that. Let’s see . . . Jim doesn’t look busy. He’d probably be good. And [scanning room] . . . Jenny. She seems super organized.

“Hey . . . Jim and Jenny, can y’all be tellers for today’s election? Just show people where to put their ballots and then count the ballots once we’re done voting. Sound good? Awesome! You’re the best! Feel free to pick some other warm bodies to help out, okay?”

Question: Chairman Always-On-the-Ball is (a) quick on his feet and troubleshooter extraordinaire; (b) clearly knowledgeable about teller responsibilities; or (c) primed for balloting mayhem. If you picked c, you win.

Maybe the above scenario seems like no big deal. Tellers are a dime a dozen, right? No. Does it really make that much of a difference? Yes. A thousand times, yes.

Tellers may seem expendable, but when the results of an election or other balloted vote are close, the last – and I mean, the very last, thing you want is to have a balloting process that members can question. What you want to know – in a stake-your-life-on-it sort of way – is that every vote was counted properly, and that every vote counted was in fact a legal vote. And let me tell you, that ain’t happenin’ unless you have rock star tellers.

Here’s what a rock star teller looks like:

Rock star tellers can count.

This one is simple. Pick tellers because of intelligence and discernment. Yes, I’ve met Ms. Would-Do-Anything-For-Anyone, and she’s the best. But unless she’s also great with math, she’s probably better off handing out programs.

Rock star tellers are dependable.

Another simple one. Pick the guy that’s going to do this as if his life depends on it, not the dude that’s going to get bored halfway through and find someone to take his place while he checks out the afternoon dessert spread the hotel just put out.

Rock star tellers are trusted.

Shady, slightly dishonest people need not apply. The best tellers are people who have a solid reputation as unquestionably trustworthy. This person is going to require everyone who casts a ballot to show proper credentials, whether they’re his BFF or not. And once the polls are closed, he’s going to say “no” to the woman who got stuck at the silent auction on her way to the ballot box and missed the voting cut-off. Bottom line: The membership’s confidence in tellers should be super high.

Rock star tellers don’t have a personal stake in the outcome.

Avoid picking people who have a personal interest in the outcome. So, don’t pick tellers who are candidates in the election. Or a candidate’s spouse. Or her children. Again – tellers need to create confidence, not suspicion.

Rock star tellers are invested in the vote outcome.

I know this sounds like a contradiction to the previous point. But while you don’t want tellers with a conflict of interest, you actually do want tellers who are personally invested in the group’s business. What this means is that you can and may want to include tellers who are publically supportive of a candidate. But if you go this route, make sure you include someone like that for every candidate, not just one candidate. Involving tellers from every faction of the vote can save you from accusations of partisan results.

And a final note: Remind the tellers to vote. Rock star tellers aren’t prohibited from voting just because they’re tellers.

If by now you’re thinking, “Good grief, it’s a heap of work to pick out tellers,” then I’ve done my job. Selecting top-notch tellers takes forethought. But trust me, you’ll have no regrets about careful teller choices if the results of your election or vote are close or contested.

The Real Truth about Who Gets to See Meeting MinutesIn the world of parliamentary procedure, there’s a common scenario: A member asks to see copies of past meeting minutes, and the group’s secretary says, “Over my dead body.”

We all know how the request tends to come about in the first place—Mr. Make-Life-Difficult wants to see what happened at every meeting for the last decade so that he can make his “really important” point at the next meeting. Or Ms. Archives-Lover wants to write an exhaustive history of the organization for this year’s anniversary celebration.

To be fair, sometimes requests to see meeting minutes are made by a group of members on one side of an issue simply because they want to see what actions the organization has taken in the past on that topic.

Suffice it to say, though, requests to see past meeting minutes are a classic good mood killer. They make the secretary suspicious, annoyed, or both. And then comes the question: Does Mr. Make-Life-Difficult really get to see the minutes from 1983?

Simple Rule 1: A member of a group has a right to examine the minutes of that group.

Plain and simple, Robert’s Rules says that the secretary of an organization has to (1) keep minutes and (2) make them available to members that ask for them. Yes, this means that if Ms. Archives-Lover wants copies of the minutes from every meeting for the last 26 years, she gets them.

But here’s an important point to remember – she only gets to see minutes for groups of which she is a member. So, if she’s a member of the group at large, she can see those minutes. And if she’s also a member of the board, she can see board meeting minutes.* But if she’s not a member of the Events Planning Committee, she’s out of luck for those particular records.

So you ask, where does this leave the secretary? Buried under piles of minutes from the ’80s? No.

Simple Rule 2: A member has a right to examine minutes at a “reasonable time and place.”

Here’s how this works: Don’t abuse the secretary. Yes, Robert’s Rules says, “Let members examine minutes.” But in the same breath it says you have “the right to examine these reports . . .  at a reasonable time and place.” And oh, by the way, “Don’t annoy the secretary.”

Yep. It actually has a bit that says that. Let’s just call it the “Secretary Support Clause.” If you’re a secretary, here’s a sentence from Robert’s Rules that you just might want to put on a plaque: The “privilege [of examining minutes] must not be abused to the annoyance of the secretary.”

So what’s reasonable? You tell me. Better yet, ask an average, educated person with a little distance from your situation. Most folks have a pretty good gauge on what’s reasonable.

Here’s a couple rules of thumb: Demanding that your request be answered in less than 24 hours is probably not reasonable. And totally ignoring a request in hopes that the member will just move on is also probably not super reasonable. Of course, there’s a world of happy mediums between these extremes.

My advice is to (1) always communicate promptly, honestly, and kindly, and (2) keep the conversation substantive, not personal. Sure, Mr. Make-Life-Difficult may not really need those 1983 minutes as badly as he thinks he does, but odds are that letting him examine them probably won’t do much harm. Who knows, you may learn something you didn’t know that you can pass along to Ms. Archives-Lover. Win-win!


* A non-member of the board can see board minutes if the board votes to allow that or if the membership votes that the board must produce and read its minutes to the entire membership.

How to Challenge the Announced Result of a Voice Vote“The ‘ayes’ have it, and the motion is adopted.” Have you ever heard these words announced after a voice vote in a meeting and thought, “Um, no. Pretty sure that motion didn’t have enough ‘yes’ votes to pass”? If so, you’re not alone. Disagreement with the chair’s call on the results of a voice vote is pretty common. The problem is that most people don’t know what to do about it. Here’s a step-by-step guide.

Step 1: Challenge the announced results immediately.

Rule #1 is to act fast. If you think the chair got it wrong, speak up, and do it now. Let’s get technical as to timing:

You can challenge results of a voice vote starting immediately after the negative votes are cast and until immediately after the chair announces the results of the vote.

What does “immediately” mean? It means before any more discussion or business occurs. So, if you think the negative votes on whether to have that bake sale fundraiser were louder and the chair said the motion passed anyway, don’t even give people a second to think about what kind of brownies they’re going to bake. Stand up and challenge the announced results immediately. If the group moves on to discuss how great the sale is going to be and what to do with the money raised, you’ve lost your opportunity.

Step 2: Say the word “division.”

Now, you may be thinking, “How in the world do I get to a microphone fast enough to challenge the vote before the group moves on?” And, “What will I say when I get there?”

Here are two key points you need to know:

  1. All that you have to say is “division.” This is the magic word. In parliamentary procedure land, when a vote is retaken, it is called a “division of the assembly,” meaning the assembly will be divided up according to its respective “yes” and “no” votes. So, someone demanding that kind of accounting is calling for a division to double-check the result. “Division” is all you have say to get the ball rolling. (Best one-word game-changer ever.)
  2. You don’t have to be at a microphone, or even be recognized to challenge the results of a vote as announced. That’s right – this is one of those few times that Robert’s Rules lets you forget all that “don’t speak unless you raise your hand and are recognized” stuff. You can just simply yell out, “division.” Ok . . . maybe “yell” is too strong a word. But I do recommend that you say it good and loud enough for everyone to hear.

Once any member says “division,” the chair is required to retake the vote by asking members to stand and vote, not just speak “yes” or “no.”

Step 3: Stop while you’re ahead.

All right, I’m guessing you feel pretty empowered by this point. But, before you go to your next meeting and start yelling “division” at every turn, there’s a couple points you need to know:

  1. Repeatedly yelling “division” on a whim might make people stare. Just sayin’. Seriously though, Robert’s Rules does put a moratorium on using “division” simply to slow things down and irritate everyone. Rule of thumb: If the vote result is clear and everyone knows it, pipe down.
  2. Saying “division” gets you the right to have a rising/standing vote taken. It doesn’t get you the right to have the vote explicitly counted. That’s a whole different kind of complicated and best explained in another post.

To sum it up, don’t be afraid to challenge the chair. Leaders aren’t perfect, the result of a voice vote can be vague, and accountability is a great thing.